Transcript — Ep6 — Race the Internet

Rhyd: In today’s episode, I’m talking to Phil Veysey. He’s Head of Sales for Europe for the Taylor & Francis Group based in Madrid. Phil, thanks for coming on the show today, mate.

Phil: It’s an absolute pleasure. Good to talk to you.

Rhyd: Good to talk to you.

What are you rethinking about the moment Phil?

Phil: Well at the moment in terms of work I’ve been talking to a lot of people about the different divisions in our company. Because we are divided into different sections. So I particularly am responsible for print book sales in Europe. Uh, we also have ebook sales, which I’m somewhat involved in, but we also have journals. And journals and books are both also getting involved in open access, which basically is a way the industry is trying to respond to demands and pressures from institutions and government to change the way academic material is funded and supplied. To change the the emphasis from it being a money making exercise as it’s seen by some for publishers to be a more collaborative, pursuit where institutions are involved in funding the research and then they have the right to distribute it as, as they see fit. But using the publisher as part of that. So that’s, that’s quite a complicated thing to start off with, but I’ve been thinking about the role of print books and the part that I’m most responsible in on all of that.

Rhyd: So open access I have a basic understanding what that means, but effectively it means I’m gonna try and get this right. So tell me if I don’t understand it, but it’s effectively making research and academic material available. for free or open to reuse by others rather than having to be sat behind a paywall. But what does that mean? So for print books then, you know, you give the print books away for free or…

Phil: uh, no, but that’s an interesting challenge because we’ve always, as a company argued that the value of what you’re buying is for the content rather than the physical paper that it’s contained in. So books are open access, but generally in an electronic format. But what I’ve seen, mostly if we do sell print versions of those books and people still want to buy them, and there are some books which are kind of a hybrid where you can have some of the chapters are available freely online and others are not. So you need the book or the ebook to get the full information. It’s an interesting question because I think a lot of the industry is trying to work it out as well. We don’t give away the book for free. However, if a print book is in a library, in a sense it is there is an open access for people to use the book as and when they wish, if they’re a member of that library.

Rhyd: You must have seen a massive change then, because obviously with the rise of eBooks and online publishing, is there a time when you think print books are gonna become less important? The aspect of publishing that is almost like the forgotten child?

Phil: Well, no, I don’t think so. And certainly my company strategy at the moment is that we are still producing print materials. There’s a lot of demand for print materials. And in terms of the revenue for the company overall, it’s one of the most important revenue lines, printed book materials generally. As things stand at the moment, the rise of eBooks and electronic information is pretty unstoppable, but at the same time, we are maintaining the market for print books and there’s a lot of interest. It depends regionally in different areas of the world. There’s different balances, but we’re still selling more, for example, more print books than we are eBooks in Europe by some margin.

Rhyd: Academic publishing, it’s obviously different from the types of things that a regular person would go into shop and buy in terms of fiction or non-fiction books. Is there a common myth about academic publishing itself that listeners might not appreciate?

Phil: Well, you’re right in that academic publishing is different from something you’d just perhaps pick up in a bookshop and start reading. Although we are always, there are always crossovers, right? So while you wouldn’t necessarily open a textbook and start reading that. There, there are lots of books that we publish, which are of general interest and for the sort of more academic trade audience, I suppose you’d call it. So people are really interested in different things. In terms of a common myth, I suppose, going back to what I was saying earlier, one myth is that print books are gonna disappear altogether and that people will only receive information or use electronic screens or documents to get their information. And I really don’t think that’s the case. And I think that as an industry, there’s still a huge demand for print materials. I think sometimes publishers would prefer just to deliver everything electronically and it would cut out a whole logistical side of things, but we are persisting. The demand is still there, which is obviously what, what drives a lot of production and drives the way we, come to market with the information. So, I suppose that would be a common myth that, that, that in the future everyone will just be using electronic devices maybe in a, in a much more distant future than I can foresee that might be the case. But I think for the time being, Printed books are persisting and they still have a role to play. I think the very interesting effect of the pandemic actually was that we did see surprisingly strong print book sales when you’d assume perhaps that people would just buy eBooks from the internet or have them supplied by their university.

And it turned out that people studying at home and working at home preferred to have those printed books, which are basic documents. I was gonna say printed documents, but printed books, which for a variety of reasons. One, we are using screens all the time for everything. So people prefer perhaps to have a physical book.

In terms of students, there was the idea that perhaps when they’re working at home, if they’ve got a stack of books on their desk, they feel that they’re really achieving something, rather than just looking at their computer screen, they could be doing something else. So I suppose that that would be my common myth.

Rhyd: So, Phil, what event made you pause and rethink your approach to work and life?

Phil: Well, it’s a bit of a combination really, I suppose. I started my career in a small agency working for publishers, which was a fantastic opportunity and. There were, I can’t remember, maybe five or six employees, and several of them moved to a different publisher, a big academic publisher based in America.

And that was seen as sort of a very clear career path, that there was a sort of introduction to the industry where the pay was relatively low, but you got lots of experience, got to travel around rather a lot and then you could get the experience to work for this big academic publisher. So I joined the publisher myself after four years at the agency and to be perfectly honest, I don’t think I really fitted, perhaps with the role at the time. I hesitate say I didn’t fit in with the culture because it’s a fine company, which is, is carrying on, but it, I didn’t really fit at the time in my personal life, I was covering a region which I wasn’t particularly interested in and so after a 18 month period, I was looking for some other opportunities, did some interviews, and I got offered the first role I had at Taylor & Francis, which was a little step up the corporate ladder. It used my languages cuz I’m a Lang language student, so I could speak French and Spanish at work, which was a great opportunity and it gave me the opportunity to move to Spain to live and work and I’ve been here ever since 2006.

So given that I’d made that decision and I’d taken a quite a big decision to fairly radically changed my life to move company, to leave behind a big corporate company, which was seen as the big opportunity and to take a step into the unknown. I think I started to rethink things. I was in my mid twenties and the last thing I did with the previous company was a week away working on a project in a small group in Amsterdam, which was obviously a great treat and, and it was a great week, but towards the end of the week, some people were asking me about my personal life in a normal way, in a, in a friendly way, perhaps a bit of a, a ribbing way. And asking if I’d had any dates lately and if there were any girls that I liked and if I was going to go and see any girls. And, and the pressure built quite a lot. And just for context my boss at the time - who’s still a friend of mine - was living in, in Amsterdam with his husband. And he was happy and he was happy in his job. And I could see first hand - possibly for the first time - a normal same sex relationship.

And after that conversation where everybody was asking, you know, “Do you have a girlfriend?” “Are you gonna go on a date?” “Will you see anybody?” The pressure built hugely. And at the end of the evening, I had a one-to-one conversation with my boss at the time, and I just had this moment. It was really the rethinking moment of my whole life. I suddenly saw that there was a possibility of a different life, a different way of doing things, and I’d finally reached the point of my journey, which sounds like a cliche when I admit, I said to him, I was gonna say, I admitted to him, which I think is part of the programming we have. I admitted that I was gay or I told him that I was gay, and it was just a really important moment for me. I think that’s an important moment for anybody in that situation and brilliantly his first reaction - and he didn’t, there was no contrivance about it was his first reaction - was to tell me he was honoured that I’d told him, and that really changed everything because it was something that I was so apprehensive about and denying to myself, and denying to my surrounding family, friends, everybody. And to hear that it was an honour from somebody just absolutely changed my attitude and changed the way I felt about it and changed the way I saw a lot of things. So as a result of that, I now live a happy out life that’s going, coming to the end of the story. But I was able to move to a new company, have a fresh start. I could bring my whole self to work and it was natural and normal and it really, feel so fulfilled and happy that it was just… well, it was the moment of my life where I rethought everything.

Rhyd: That’s incredible. Thanks for sharing that. Wow.

Phil: It’s a pleasure. It’s a pleasure.

Rhyd: It made me think of that film Sliding Doors. I dunno why, but do you think if you hadn’t have met, if you hadn’t seen your boss at that time, do you think you might be very different now, like, or you’ve…

Phil: that’s a very good observation. Uh, because I haven’t actually seen Sliding Doors, but I get the principle I get the principle in that it was a split second decision or a split second action, of which there was basically no return. So once it’s out in the open, then. You know, it’s out. So I suppose it being such a sensitive thing or it was such a sensitive thing that I’d built up in my mind that it was a do I or don’t I moment for a very long time. So running to catch the train or not is absolutely, absolutely a great observation about it.

So, I dunno what would’ve happened, and I’m very grateful that I did at that moment. Suddenly it did feel like pressure, but, um, I bowed to the pressure or I. I was honest to myself and, and, and to my boss at that moment. So yes, it felt like a sliding

Rhyd: Brilliant. Although you’ve not see the film now, I feel bad for mentioning it.

Rhyd: You and I have known each other for a long time, 30 plus years. I think I didn’t know that, I don’t think I knew that. And it’s, it’s incredible to hear it as well. Do you think at the time, 16, 17 years ago, was, was the moment just right or do you think with society today being seemingly more open, do you think someone of a similar age today would find it a lot easier to do what you did, or do you think there are now other pressures on them that will sort of make it equally as difficult?

Phil: Well hopefully society has changed and has moved on, and I think social media has made things, much more public for many people. So there are lots of pressures that come with that, but I think, like you hear of much younger people, I was in my mid twenties, which is quite a long time to wait to come out of the closet. I think society has changed. We have same sex marriages and that’s quite a normal possibility, which wasn’t when we were growing up, when we were at school there, I think the educational law, which forbade the promotion of homosexuality. So it was something that even in schools weren’t even supposed to talk about. And I think now we can, and thinking about the Qatar World Cup, which is quite controversial. In a political sense. There’s a, some debate in the UK about it, I’ve seen but the conversations I’ve heard on the media and and on the radio are about how to protect LGBT fans who are travelling to Qatar, and underlining their right to go. And I do feel that when we were younger, perhaps that wouldn’t have been the consideration. And the world of sport in particular was something where, LGBT topics were completely taboo and not talked about. So I’m not, I’m not saying it’s easy for anybody and there’s always pressures for anybody, any young person, but hopefully society in the UK and in Spain has moved on. I would say it has, there are still pressures, but there, there are pressure for all young people. So, you know, a young straight person might not want to get married, but their parents might really want them to, or want them to have children if they didn’t want to. And so yeah there are lots of aspects to it, but I do think that things have changed and it would be easier now I think. I think there is, there is more support as well in society for.

Rhyd: Did you get any negative reactions from people you knew? Family, friends?

Phil: Much, much fewer than I was in anticipating naturally. It was something that, Yeah, exactly. And it was something that I’d been very fearful of for a very long time, and I think if you are in your mid twenties, it’s perhaps a bit of a, a surprise sometimes if you’ve been. If not living in a certain way, but giving the impression of, of having a certain life and then suddenly changing after a while. But, and I don’t know how people reacted privately and whether it took some time to process for my friends or family, but outwardly I felt overwhelmingly I felt supported and I felt really protected by, by everybody. It took me a little longer to tell my own father, but even he, when I eventually told him, was, was supportive. So, So, yeah. Um, I’ve been very lucky

Rhyd: And looking back over your shoulder — to quote Mike and the Mechanics — would there, would you have changed anything or was it just the time was right, the moment was right? Or do you, did you think, Oh, I should have done this five years ago, or I should have waited?

Phil: I think I wish I’d done it much, much earlier because with the glorious benefit of hindsight, I now know that I’m fine and it probably always would’ve been fine. The moment in itself, as I say, I actually treasure and it was a sort of cumulation of, of lots of factors that made me reach that point, and I was happy and it felt like a really nice moment.

But yeah, I think generally I wish I had been bolder in the past and, and said it sooner and dealt with the consequences. I think young people are optimistic and they think about the future a lot and sometimes that’s a positive thing. And sometimes I thought my fear of admitting my sexuality or, or who I really am might ruin my whole future, which of course now I know hasn’t. So yeah, I’ve, in general, my advice to myself would be to do it as soon as possible

Rhyd: You mentioned young people there. If someone was listening, was unsure about their status or their sexuality and didn’t know what to do, is there some advice you might be able to give them that might help them?

Phil: Well that’s a tricky question. And again, talking about different regions of the world that, you know, in different places there are different pressures and different risks. And I’ve recently been to Florida, which has passed some really, really strict and unpleasant laws about education and talking about same sex relationships and sexual identities.

But I would encourage anybody as long as it’s safe in terms of the legislation around them to be their true self. So to talk to people that they confide in and people that know them well, and people that love them and talk about it and be open and really be proud of who they are if they can. And it might take longer for some people than others.

So it took me a long time but it worked out in the end. So my advice would be to seek the, support of your nearest and dearest and be your true self as often as you can. That would be my advice.

Rhyd: That’s brilliant. Thanks for sharing that with us, Phil.

Phil: It’s a pleasure.

Rhyd: Like I said earlier, it’s incredible to hear and as someone who’s known you for a long time, I hadn’t realized some of that until you just told me. So, honoured that you would share with me.

Phil: And even sharing it, even sharing it so publicly feels like a big step. It’s a strange thing. I do subscribe to the idea that, you know, nobody should have to come out of anything, of any closets but at the same time, it was an important milestone or realization for me. So thank you, thanks for the opportunity.

Rhyd: So you’ve been working in academic publishing for round about 20 years, maybe a bit more. How did you get started?

Phil: I got started because when I graduated with French and Spanish from the University of Birmingham, I was looking for opportunities to use my languages and I started working for, a well known American travel company and felt that was a great opportunity. But luckily for me, I found this opportunity in academic publishing, which felt like a good fit.

So it’s sales, but on a kind of very human relationship building level and using my languages. So I made the leap and that was very luckily for me, just in the year 2000 before 9/11 happened, and the travel industry went through a, a lot of upheaval, so I was very lucky. So I started working for that, that agency.

And as I mentioned earlier it was a, basically a really fantastic opportunity because it was a small, young company which gave new people opportunities to travel quite widely, get lots of experience, meet lots of people around the industry, and really develop things. So I stayed there for four years, four very happy years.

Rhyd: And in the last 20 years, the biggest upheaval is that, Is that the switch to eBooks? Is it online or is it, is it something else?

Phil: Well, really thinking about the, that agency. I started in the year 2000, we shared one PC between three people, and we used to use faxes quite a lot to communicate with our customers and each other, and we would share the PC to do some emailing every now and then. And so actually probably one of the biggest upheavals, surprisingly in the beginning of the two thousands was the internet because we even sold, So it is eBooks basically, but we used to sell encyclopedias for a fairly well known company, and one of their launch events was in London and it was a person racing the internet to look up facts in the encyclopedia, which, if you think about it now in 2022, can you imagine everybody would get their smartphone out and the poor person would be looking up Ecuador in their encyclopedia. So, in a very reductive way, I suppose, the internet is one of the biggest upheavals, and that includes eBooks and open access and all kinds of different things, but yeah. How’s that?

Rhyd: I love that. Race the internet.

Phil: Because if you think about it, and then I can’t remember when Google started, but like now you’d basically Google anything you need to, “how to fix your door handle” or “how to boil an egg”. But at the time, that wasn’t such a cultural thing. It was, you know, “how do we find out what the population of a country is”. But There wasn’t the same kind of way of asking Google, I don’t think, or Ask Jeeves

Rhyd: no. Ask Jeeves my, oh my God, blast from the past. It’s funny cause my smoke alarm started beeping in the middle of the night and I had to look up on my phone, “How do I stop this?” And I thought if this had happened a few years ago, I’d just smashed out with a hammer and gone back to bed. So obviously there are some benefits

Phil: Absolutely. So we do still do some directories and, and encyclopaedias, but that’s really a kind of publishing that’s slightly fallen by the wayside, but it’s informative to think about how, how we do present academic information and how people learn.

Rhyd: Do people still sell encyclopedia’s door to door? Surely not?

Phil: I don’t think so. Uh, , um, maybe actually, Mm, I think there are some less than reliable companies that might do that in an exploitative way, . But um, yeah, no, that’s pretty much fallen by the wayside. Another common was when I started in the agency at the beginning of my career, I think a lot of my friends, cuz I was given a company car, quite a smart golf, I think quite a lot of my friends thought I’d put books in the boot of the car and drove to different European countries to try and sell them door to door. So, um, yeah, I don’t think this happens quite so much anymore.

Rhyd: What’s coming up next for you and Taylor and Francis Phil?

Phil: Well right now it’s coming up to our financial year end and the academic publishing industry still is a sort of slightly strange phased thing, which, you know, starts in September in the traditional sense and finishes in the summer, but it’s basically the last quarter for us is always the biggest quarter of sales.

So right now it’s closing everything we possibly can before the end of the year. And in general, I suppose what’s next is, to see what happens with the mix of publishing and divisions that we have. So the kind of changes that will happen with open access and eBooks and journals to see how it all integrates.

So I think there’s lots of collaboration possibilities internally that are exciting for everybody that works for Taylor and Francis, we were encouraged they’ve put a new program in to encourage people to develop their career. Even if it’s moving sideways or, or experimenting a different area.

So I think there’s a bright future basically for, For TNF.

Rhyd: And if anyone wants to get in touch with you, Phil, what’s the easiest way?

Phil: Well, I’m on LinkedIn, I suppose that’s probably the easiest way

Rhyd: Well, thanks so much for your time today, Phil. I really appreciate you taking time outta your day to tell me about what happened to you back in 2006, that defining moment. It was great to hear and I appreciate obviously it’s quite an emotional thing to have done, so…

Phil: well, it’s been an absolute pleasure and thanks for the opportunity.

Rhyd: No worries. All right. That was Phil Veysey European head of sales for Taylor Francis Group. Thanks.

Phil: Thanks a lot. Rhyd.

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